Hydraulic roof system failed

[Dutchyankee]

Hello anyone,
My 2004 Viano Marco Polo is equipped with the electric power hydraulic lift system.
Last week it started to lift as normal but was struggling to raise. I decided to drop it down and luckily it went back to the lower position. It was pretty cold so I thought it made the fluid too thick to move the cylinders.
Today it was warm so I thought to give it a try. Unfortunately it didn’t.
the motor of the pump ran for a while the just stopped, no motion of the lifts working.
Any ideas?
I see no records from the previous owner of any service nor do I see anything in the manual.
Hopefully someone has some experience or tips.
Friday I will try again and give it a helping hand to lift it.
Looking forward to any suggestions before I call the dealership for an appointment.
Thanks in advance!
Regards Stephen

 

[Dutchyankee]

Low hydraulic fluid, not easily accessible, it’s hidden behind the panel in front of the space for storage of tire tools. Have to remove the whole panel, hope it goes back in place easier than it came out

 

[Dutchyankee]

To any interested readers I discovered the problem with the hydraulic lift system on my 2004 Mercedes-Benz Viano Marco Polo.
The hydraulic tank is almost empty it’s not easily accessible there is no mention of it in the manual anywhere even the Mercedes-Benz dealer does not know what fluid should go in there I’m going to get some power steering fluid which is also hydraulic drive unless anyone knows for sure.
I will keep you all posted for future reference have a great day and a good weekend kind regards Stephen the Dutch Yankee

 

[Samebutdifferent]

Par for the course that the Merc dealer didn't know what oil to use

My guess is that it's almost certainly the same as they use in their hydraulic convertible roof systems.
A quick search revealed this old bit of info. So Febi 02615 might be a cheaper option than MB oil. Worth looking into I think.

 

[Dutchyankee]

Thanks, the root cause is a leaking left hydraulic cylinder. I will replace both and create an access opening on the panel
(which is quite a job getting back in place).
I guess for it service age of 17 years I can’t complain. Thanks for your reply.
I keep posting more and add photos as I go along.
I’m retiring next year so I’ll have more time to fiddle about with my old timers. I’ve got a 1977 911S as well which keeps me busy.
Regards,
Stephen, The Dutch Yankee.

 

[Samebutdifferent]

 

[Paul Cardiff]

To any interested readers I discovered the problem with the hydraulic lift system on my 2004 Mercedes-Benz Viano Marco Polo.
The hydraulic tank is almost empty it’s not easily accessible there is no mention of it in the manual anywhere even the Mercedes-Benz dealer does not know what fluid should go in there I’m going to get some power steering fluid which is also hydraulic drive unless anyone knows for sure.
I will keep you all posted for future reference have a great day and a good weekend kind regards Stephen the Dutch Yankee

Not sure if that would be the correct type?? I know a lot of folk on the VW California Forum had this type of issue. They have spec of oil to use on their roof which has to be similar I would think. I do recall it being very expensive though. Perhaps a quick search there would give you more info on oil spec but this is what they use. I would say identical hydraulic/electric roofs. In fact looking at your pictures, the components look the same as pictures posted on VW California.

 

[Edward Sandaker Palm]

This is amazing, I have the exact same problem

Does no one on here know the specifications for the oil used on MP? I am about to head over to my local auto parts store to purchase either this:

LHM Plus : Hydraulic Fluid : Products Guide : Moove Lubricants Limited

Access the full description, specifications, application recommendations, Material Safety Data Sheet and Technical Data Sheet for LHM Plus from Comma.

www.commaoil.com

or this:

Products : Moove Lubricants Limited

Engine oils, antifreeze & coolants, gear oils, brake fluids and more, specifically designed to meet the demanding contemporary passenger vehicle market.

www.commaoil.com

It would be really nice with some input on whether any of these is compatible, and if both; which one would be the best.

 

[Edward Sandaker Palm]

In case anyone knows how to find additional info on MB parts than just part number/name, I was just told that the article number for MB OEM hydraulic fluid is 001 989 2403 13.

And the "13" at the end apparanetly only signifies the container size, which is 1L

 

[Edward Sandaker Palm]

Thanks, the root cause is a leaking left hydraulic cylinder. I will replace both and create an access opening on the panel
(which is quite a job getting back in place).
I guess for it service age of 17 years I can’t complain. Thanks for your reply.
I keep posting more and add photos as I go along.
I’m retiring next year so I’ll have more time to fiddle about with my old timers. I’ve got a 1977 911S as well which keeps me busy.
Regards,
Stephen, The Dutch Yankee.

Hi,

Have you found the cylinders for sale yet? My local MB dealers charge 1500 Euros pr side, so I am eager to find them cheaper somewhere..
I have also contemplated trying to get a new seal for the cylinder. I'm just afraid that I will never get this back together if start tinkering with the cylinder, and the seal is impossible to find..

 

[Dutchyankee]

I received a similar price which is outrageously expensive. I’m guessing it’s the entire arm assembly which is how I’ve seen the dealership like to do things.
Side note:
I had a similar experience with the electric windows actuator. The motor broke a plastic tooth inside. MB wanted to exchange the entire assembly which was easier than reassembling the cables though a new motor. I pick up a used one from a junkyard for €10 instead of €500.
Back to the roof lift.
I’m now going to leave it as is. It’s working ok now, no leaking fluid seen after dozens of test.
What i did do is add an access door to the Hydraulic fluid reservoir tank which for my 2004 Viano is just under the ashtray and cup holders. I keep a liter of fluid with me now. If it does make some weird noise I can top it up without removing the entire side interior panel.
My colleague at work knows of the manufacturer of all these cylinders but needs to have an exact example to be sure to get the correct ones. I have the MB part number but the cylinder doesn’t have any reference number. It’s what they call an OEM part and won’t sell it to anyone. (Tesla does the same thing)
About replacing seals on a hydraulic cylinder be careful. Unless you have special knowledge and tools it might be dangerous. It’s high pressure and a failure to hole could cause the roof to fall down unexpectedly.
It could be the piston seal or the shaft seal or both. The end connections are pressed sealed and tested with over pressure.

I think my issue was regarding extreme low temperature usage. We went winter camping (-12C) which would make the seals harder and shrink.
Good luck I hoped this helps you make a better decision how to move forward.

 

[Edward Sandaker Palm]

The cylinder is sold separately from MB, but the price is still outrageuos. I will paste the part number below.
I was also in contact with Power-Packer, who makes the whole hydraulic system, including the pump. I asked if I could use the rams for the VW California, which unfortunately I could not.

Funny that we have the exact same issue going on. Mine is also well sealed up, I haven't seen it leak since I saw the spillage. I will keep an eye out for a parts car or used cylinder for sale, as I suspect the situation can get worse with time (leaking at higher and higher temperatures).

I would never change the seal with the cylinder pressurized. You can depressurize the system via the pump
Either way, Power-Packer says the seal is not replaceable, so I'm not going to try...

 

[Edward Sandaker Palm]

Here is the complete conversation with Power-Packer, there is some useful i fo in there read from top to bottom..

Hi Edward,

Thank you for the compliments, we are always trying to keep our users
(although they are not our direct customers) happy and satisfied with
our products.

Regarding your questions what the difference is between a
Mercedes-Benz (MB) cylinder and the VW cylinder, that are the
following characteristics:
- The diameter of the cylinder is different, the VW is slightly bigger
compared to the MB. This will cause you trouble with the build-in
position;
- Due to the fact that VW cylinder is bigger you will experience oil
shortage when operating the VW cylinder on the MB system;
- Rod-Ends are different between the VW and the MB. Even the MB left
and right rod-end are different but they can be changed if you have a
bit experience (which you will have is my feeling).

My advice is not to switch over to VW cylinders as you will experience
the problems described above and will have influence on the complete
movement of the roof.

Best Regards,

Xxxz | Business Developer Aftermarket Power-Packer | Yvel |
|
http://www.centromotion.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Sandaker Palm <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 8:27 PM
To: Xxxx <Xxxx@power-packer.nl>
Subject: Re: Request form Power-Packer

[EXTERNAL SENDER] - If you believe this may be PHISHING, please click
the "Report Phishing" button above.

Hi Xxxx, thank you so much for your response. I did not expect such a
prompt nor detailed response!
If possible, would you let me know what the differences between the
California and Marco Polo are ? I know tgat the right hand side
cylinder on a Marco Polo has a third sensor location somewhere in the
middle, but besides that they really look identical to me.

Thanks again,
Best regards,
Edward

Den 2021-03-31 14:39, Xxxx wrote

Dear Mr. Palm,

Thank you for sending in your request.

First of all the hydraulic system supplied for the MB Marco Polo is
not the same as we have supplied for the VW-Westfalia. These are not
interchangeable unfortunately.

The seals are unfortunately not interchangeable and you have to
replace the complete cylinder. These are available at the dealer or
at a "Cabrio-Camper" specialist, if any. Hereby the product codes you
are looking for:

MB Product ID

PPE Product ID

Description

Q900001506271

DCD8-104442-S

Cylinder Right

Q900001506274

DCD8-104570-S

Cylinder Left

Trust to have informed you sufficiently and I wish you a nice day!

Best Regards,

Xxxx | Business Developer Aftermarket

Power-Packer | Yvel | P.O. Box 327, 7570 AH

 

[Epigram]

I received a similar price which is outrageously expensive. I’m guessing it’s the entire arm assembly which is how I’ve seen the dealership like to do things.
Side note:
I had a similar experience with the electric windows actuator. The motor broke a plastic tooth inside. MB wanted to exchange the entire assembly which was easier than reassembling the cables though a new motor. I pick up a used one from a junkyard for €10 instead of €500.
Back to the roof lift.
I’m now going to leave it as is. It’s working ok now, no leaking fluid seen after dozens of test.
What i did do is add an access door to the Hydraulic fluid reservoir tank which for my 2004 Viano is just under the ashtray and cup holders. I keep a liter of fluid with me now. If it does make some weird noise I can top it up without removing the entire side interior panel.
My colleague at work knows of the manufacturer of all these cylinders but needs to have an exact example to be sure to get the correct ones. I have the MB part number but the cylinder doesn’t have any reference number. It’s what they call an OEM part and won’t sell it to anyone. (Tesla does the same thing)
About replacing seals on a hydraulic cylinder be careful. Unless you have special knowledge and tools it might be dangerous. It’s high pressure and a failure to hole could cause the roof to fall down unexpectedly.
It could be the piston seal or the shaft seal or both. The end connections are pressed sealed and tested with over pressure.

I think my issue was regarding extreme low temperature usage. We went winter camping (-12C) which would make the seals harder and shrink.
Good luck I hoped this helps you make a better decision how to move forward.

Seeing this thread made me wonder whether it would be viable to replace the hydraulic cylinders ( and pump etc) with linear electric actuators.
I expect the MB parts (even if they fitted) would be as eye wateringly expensive as their hydraulic equivalents.
However, I was looking at some electric actuators on the internet a few weeks ago for an unrelated project to raise and lower a bed and was surprised how cheap they are. Unfortunately, many of these have the motor at the side so would not be suitable.
Definitely not a job for the faint hearted and could probably cause more problems than it solved with controls and setting limit switches etc. but someone might be sufficiently determined and up for the challenge.

Apologies for this not particularly helpful distraction. Good luck with solving your roof problem.

 

[Edward Sandaker Palm]

I am loving the idea, and it's definitely a project I could have embarked on if I didn't already have plenty of projects !

 

[LucieSchra]

I received a similar price which is outrageously expensive. I’m guessing it’s the entire arm assembly which is how I’ve seen the dealership like to do things.
Side note:
I had a similar experience with the electric windows actuator. The motor broke a plastic tooth inside. MB wanted to exchange the entire assembly which was easier than reassembling the cables though a new motor. I pick up a used one from a junkyard for €10 instead of €500.
Back to the roof lift.
I’m now going to leave it as is. It’s working ok now, no leaking fluid seen after dozens of test.
What i did do is add an access door to the Hydraulic fluid reservoir tank which for my 2004 Viano is just under the ashtray and cup holders. I keep a liter of fluid with me now. If it does make some weird noise I can top it up without removing the entire side interior panel.
My colleague at work knows of the manufacturer of all these cylinders but needs to have an exact example to be sure to get the correct ones. I have the MB part number but the cylinder doesn’t have any reference number. It’s what they call an OEM part and won’t sell it to anyone. (Tesla does the same thing)
About replacing seals on a hydraulic cylinder be careful. Unless you have special knowledge and tools it might be dangerous. It’s high pressure and a failure to hole could cause the roof to fall down unexpectedly.
It could be the piston seal or the shaft seal or both. The end connections are pressed sealed and tested with over pressure.

I think my issue was regarding extreme low temperature usage. We went winter camping (-12C) which would make the seals harder and shrink.
Good luck I hoped this helps you make a better decision how to move forward.

Hi, we've got the same problem as you. And we've got MB Viano Marco polo from 2004 as well. I was at the official MB dealer and services. It was horrible. They found absolutely nothing and just charged me about 100 Eur (all just for connecting to the computer). Than they just told me that it's hydraulic and repair would be very expensive and last about 14 days?! Uffff....So I said no - offcourse - and took the car, this spring, to our newest mechanic (he is very handy, but he had non experiences with this kind of car). He finally found what is wrong! And it's similar to your problem. Everything is functioning right, but the pistons are dead....fluid is all over the roof..so I'm looking for repair parts. But in Czech republic it's almost impossible. And I'm expecting that from official MB would be really expensive....like everything....Our mechanic somehow fastened the roof to the frame, so roof is fixed. We had problem to put the roof down - it didn't close properly...It was horrible experience (with kids in the car, all supplies for a week, somewhere in the middle of the trip...). And I don't think it's because of the temperature. Our happened in the hot summer. I think it's maybe because of the age of the car. If I'm understanding it correctly. There is a list of the parts fot the repair? Is that right? Saw it somewhere in the conversation...

 

[LucieSchra]

Hi,

Have you found the cylinders for sale yet? My local MB dealers charge 1500 Euros pr side, so I am eager to find them cheaper somewhere..
I have also contemplated trying to get a new seal for the cylinder. I'm just afraid that I will never get this back together if start tinkering with the cylinder, and the seal is impossible to find..

Hi I found this if it's the right part? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes...ric-Slave-Cylinder-Replace-Part-/303770267521

 

[Grand Tourismo]

I'm just chucking in my personal 2 cents worth but surely the hydraulic ram is rebuildable by a specialist...if not a hydraulic company then I would be fairly confident that one of the motorcycle suspension specialists could rebuild the unit with new seals etc. it is not a dissimilar unit to a rear suspension unit (minus the spring rebound element)

(I was once told by a sage engineer that if human hands built it, then human hands can repair it)

 

[Dutchyankee]

Hi I found this if it's the right part? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes...ric-Slave-Cylinder-Replace-Part-/303770267521

This was the a screenshot of the quotation I received.it’s very detailed and includes the rear wiper assembly which has failed.
I fixed my issue but making an access opening and refilled the reservoir and luckily no leaks yet.
Good luck
Stephen